Forumtopia... join the cause!

[SileNceR]

My suggestion is this: although it is somewhat entertaining reading about all of you admins and mods bickering and discussing possible solutions to the probs I don't think it is doing the site any good! Might it not be better to discuss solutions in a private admin discussion and if you wish input from the general members to put the basic suggestions to a vote in public? In this way you don't need to display the "dirty laundry" to all.

The reason this thread is in the open is because it needs to be, as RDR said, these forums are just as much the spammers' as it is the dedicated posters' and this conversation should therefore involve every member of these boards.

Now, if the forums weren't losing posters at a detrimental rate then perhaps we could leave it as is, but this is not the case, the forums have a problem, they ARE losing members rapidly, and we, the original contributors have returned to see what we can do to try and take it back, way back and to it's original state as the "Internets friendliest forum" as I believe Cameron coined it.

Dirty laundry, no - reality - yes.

[Webgraph]

I'm with ya on this one, Osiris! It is time to stop the post count competition and make it base on helpfulness! :) Then again, TweakTown is a fairly large community. At the community I mostly access (SlipStreamX), we're actually having problems with getting people to post. Whoever invented the post count is a nutcase! :D

[Darthtanion]

I was made aware of this thread early this morning (my time), so I guess I'll go ahead and put in my two cents worth now since all of the "Amen Brother" crap seems to be out of the way.

While I certainly don't know what fueled this little war, I am going to do what I can to dowse out the fire. To do so, I'm going to go out on a limb abd ask folks to THINK and then to consider these points...

- TweakTown is a technical site and will remain so until death do us part. As such, there are a lot of forum threads that do and will continue to cater to this very ideal. There is still a core of people who continue to do as much as possible to answer the questions of those who are still new to our little fun area.

- TweakTown has a portion of the forums dedicated to kicking back and chatting about anything under the sun. This area is called the Beer Garden. There are very few rules within the Beer Garden and that was the way that it was intended when it was created... and yes, this was the same concept in mind when it was still just called "Off Topic". It is simply a place to talk to others about nothing in particular.

- TweakTown maintains this forum as a PUBLIC forum. This means that everyone is welcome as long as they can manage to carry on like civilized individuals. It is not generally accepted to harass or harangue anyone just because they feel a certain way about a topic. The forums are designed to be used as a meeting place for ideas, concepts and general chatting; all within their own specific areas.

Now, taking all this into consideration, I am having a difficult time understanding what all the buzz is concerning the way the forums operate. Sure, SPAM is garbage, but it has always been around in the Beer Garden. Why is everyone up in arms about it now? Because the new folks are better at it than you were when the shoe was on the other foot? Let's get real here people!

As far as the concerns of the SPAM carrying over to the other forum areas, if this is so, then it is a problem with Moderators who are not carrying out their responsibilities. When I see an abundance of crap in the technical threads, I generally say something either in a PM or publicly depending on the circumstances. If I have a Moderator who cannot do this, then I would ask that they contact me and we'll talk about it. I don't see why it is a reason stop counting posts as this will not do anything productive for our forums.

And what the Hell is up with removing the counting of posts when answering threads within ANY forum area? This goes strictly against the concept of this being an open forum. If I have someone who is so concerned with pointless posts, then I would implore you to think back a year or so and then tell me why it wasn't an issue back then.

I'm really sorry that some of our old timers are leaving, but I have seen that this will happen on a regular basis. Very few people will remain committed to a single site for any real length of time. It is a fact of life that we are seldom satisfied with what we have, but we are still a technical minded community of people who actually care about helping others who may be having a difficult time or are just learning to tear into the internals of their systems. If the shenanigans that go on within the Beer Garden upset you or go against what you want to see, then do as I do and bypass the area. I post occassionally in here, but it is seldom because I don't care for the casual chatting that goes on in here. But that is a personal choice that I make and so I remain in the tech threads as a general rule. But for me to sit back and start throwing flames at the Beer Garden for this reason would be asinine.

I hope that my points come across in the manner in which I intended them. I don't want folks to have their feelings hurt about my thoughts, but to be up in arms over the fact that we are an open and public forum seems foolish to me. But I don't imagine that people will take my comments in that fashion. So be it.

We are a public meeting place of a diverse group of individuals. Most of us are technically minded with a desire to help others, hence the reputation as "The World's Friendliest Forum". But there are those who think that their post count is the only thing that matters. As long as it is contained within the Beer Garden, then all is as intended. If it makes it outside into the technical forums, then it should be taken care of. If my Moderators are incapable of handling the situation, then all they have to do is contact me and I'll take care of it. Am I an ass? Yeah, but I can live with that.

Bottom line folks... This is a place to gather and talk about ideas. If you don't like the stuff in the Beer Garden, then don't frequent it.

[Osiris]

A lot of good points there Darth, a few of them that I hadn't considered.

Yes, I agree that there are still many people still here that are able to help out with questions and the like, but there is still the problem of useful answers being drowned out with what really is spam. You say that Moderators should be doing their job - but as with anything, it's better to attack the cause of the problem rather than the symptoms.

Also, I have seen cases where a Moderator has removed spam-esque posts in the technical forums, only to have another ten posts thrown at them.

I have to disagree with your suggestion that people don't stay affiliated with any one site for a length of time - just look at yourself! I also think that there are a lot of people here now who will be staying with TweakTown for quite a while yet.

I just want to see the TT forums as what they were originally intended - a friendly, spam/flame-free forum for people who want to talk about technical stuff - and, occasionally, just life.

What I think the key issue in this debate is the post count. The most important question here is this:

What is the point of a post count?

I think, originally, post counts were intended so that new members would recognize regulars - and recognize that they've had experience, and that their advice would generally be helpful and sound.

But these days, the people with the huge post counts are those that talk about the weather in Florida at the moment, or talking about how much they miss their old admin. Excuse me, but I don't think that being able to play the TT Word Association game makes you an experienced forum member.

I don't want to kill off the Beer Garden - it is a place for community building, and that's great. It's just that it's affecting the rest of the forums, and that's not a good thing.

So, why do post counts still exist on TweakTown? They don't seperate people with plenty of knowledge and experience from those who have been chatting over the weather in Florida.

The answer? I think it's just to get rid of post counts, full stop. I think that maybe if a user has proven themselves to be knowledgeable and helpful in an area, they could receive a certain-colored star (depending on what area they are helpful in).

On a final note, I really don't want to discriminate against newer members here - I was one once, and there's heaps of new-ish people here who are being really helpful and informative - that's great, I hope to see it kept up.

To everyone on these forums at the moment: I hope you stay with TT, whatever happens. It may not be the same as it was for me, but it's still a great community.

~Osiris

[ReSpAwN DeMoN]

I sure hope no ones feelings we're hurt. Atleast mine weren't. What you had just now said is the first actual meaning full ANYTHING in this thread. I mean without any spam of any kind there is no fun. I mean check this out. Someone asks a question someone answers DONE that's it clsoe that thread the person's answer has been questioned! You see what I mean? There is no reason for a second person to answer that question a second time. That would be an example of spam. An example that needs to be there.

As with the post counts. I'm totally against removing of the posts. I've also noticed that all the mods and admins are slowly making this revolution and removing there post count! EVEN WIGGO! Post count in my opinion is nothing more then "level of activity" it shows how active a user is. If you wanna know if the person was constantly just doing nothing but Bging it all day. THAT"S THERE PROBLEM! Is there really a problem of them being in ABC all day? I mean when you think about it a post count can actually be something as an achivment.

I mean what the hell are you talking about (not you darth) by no more fun in TT. Do you relize how many hours per day I spend at TT? I wake up in the morning and get ready for school then I spend some time at TT. I get home and I'm at TT. I was at my grandma's house and I was TTing it! My dad and grandma came up to me and asked if they could see something on the comp and I was like "no! I'm reading this!" what was I reading? I was reading this thread. If there is no fun its becuase of this. Basically your little "revolution" is taking the fun out of it because of the no more spamming ordeal. I can understand where your comming from with spamming to a certain extent. But its just not right.

I was talking to my brother about this yesterday and today about this whole thing that's going down at the TT forums. He just so happens to be a mod at like two xbox forums. And I told him about the getting rid of the post count. And he said to me that forums without posts are so boring usually cuse no one has anything to achive for.

I want each and everyone of you to take a good long look at alot of the forums out there. Go ahead. Take a look around cause I have a feeling they are looking at us. Back when I first became a member I was trying to decide which forum to join (a member of JUST TT) and TT is one of the most organized forums. Look at AMDMB for example. They heave a forum for every board manufacturer. So what the hell is the problem here?!?!? I don't see any!

Anyway that is just my two cents as well.

[Mr. C]

I'm going to be bold here and offer up my opinion on some things as well. It's freely given, as has the content of any and all other posts I have placed within this forum.

I believe a lot of good points have been made by you folks.
Yes, TweakTown is by all means first and formost a tech-site.
And this forum is/was/remains one of the best places I have found in my limited travels for discussion, sharing and learning of such things.

I also truly believe the Beer Garden also has it's place. I've had a good deal of entertainment in some of those threads.

I think DRPeanutButter really pushed some peoples buttons. Admittedly, I posted in a few of those thread initially but it all just got to be too much for my tastes. Not exactly TweakTown caliber stuff, if you know what I mean.

I have prior to that seen examples of how 1 errant individual can disrupt this forum but I never imagined that it could snowball into what I'm seeing now.
Crazy ain't it?

As Darthtanion stated, there are counter-measures in place. In the past they have served this community well. Truthfully, they can still serve this community well.

Things are out of hand now - that's a fact.
This forum is in a tail-spin on several levels at the moment.
But I'm not sure what we need here is a total overhaul. Use the tools provided, and in due time things are going to level out.

When I arrived here this was a nice community and it still is.
There's never going to be a Forum Utopia, there will always be jerks in any community.

Osiris, I understand where your coming from I think. But there is still a productive exchange of information going on here that is still being contributed to. There are some recent members who have fit into that ideal nicely as well.
Personally, I can live with doing away with a post count - it at times can turn into it's own worst enemy. But at other times it does serve a sort of semi-purpose. I like the idea of ratings, but I truly don't believe it will work. When was the last time you saw a rated post? The same will be true of the member ratings - lack of participation at that level.

I come here to share, learn and teach. Additionally I can also come to this forum to enjoy.
As far as the Cafe goes - I have no clue. I was generously offered a password quite some time ago. I declined it as I like to keep my posting "in the open".
Yes, things are out of hand - most of us have been at one time or another. (many of you may remember with a grimace my own personal period of smiley infestation within this forum --- which directly contributed I believe to the marquee outrage)

In time it all leveled out. Opinions were given and people policed themselves for the most part.
We all kick-up from time to time and when it comes down to brass tacks we all appreciate this community and try to conform to the ideals which have made this community what it is/should be.

But it is amazing what a bad egg can do to the basket ain't it:?:

TweakTown is a lot of things to a lot of people and that has made this community a place I like to dwell in.

'nuff said:)

[Thoric]

well i agree with osiris, the post count is the major culprit here.

true it shows one's dedication, experience, how often they visit...etc

but people treat it as a competition, to get the most posts...and by doing this they put crap all through the hardware/help forums...

one thing i disagree with is the asking of a single question multiple times, something needs to be done there.

eg: which cpu is best? etc etc etc

[Andy]

one thing i disagree with is the asking of a single question multiple times, something needs to be done there.

eg: which cpu is best? etc etc etc

thoric, the one problem with the question of "which cpu is best?" and one like that, is that people have different needs, budgets and ask at different times of the year, and as we all know, with computers, components constantly get superseeded.

[ReSpAwN DeMoN]

yA a question like which cpu is best is definitly only an opinion and there is no answer. The top of the line from each company will be the answer. But ya post count definitly has become a competition. but truthfully I think what is really bothering you (me too) is the SP1 crap in the winxp thread. Whenever I see a new post there I'ma ctually afraid of going in there. Cause now I'm expecting the word SP1 to be there. But soooooo what.

I mean everyone here so far has there share of valid points. But like osiris said about the things like "weather in florida" I participated in that thread too. but guess what? All those posts that I "gained" are now gone. The entire BG is now wiped out from gaining posts. Now the only posts someone can gain are in the hardware/software. I only lost maybe a total of 50-60 posts when this button was pushed to eliminate the posts from the bg. That goes to show how much I participate in what TT really is. Answer this. Have I personally done anything wrong at all?

Basically its gonna go like this. The people that leave are the ones that we're only in it for the post. DRPB is a prime example. After you cut off the posts for BG Games he left.

[pga1234]

I appluad all of your points, everyone.

Everyone had at least one good idea on how to make TT better. Now I was just thinking of a few and wanted to restate them.

JediAgent stated that TT should be closed for a short while. This is a good idea but at the same time I think that the entire database should be erased. I know this is extreme but it would help so many things. Now to make sure no one just posted a question and was awaiting an answer when the forums go down maybe people shouldnt be able to start a new thread. Say starting Sunday. People could still post a reply to threads already started. Then a few days later, say wednesday, the forums go down. Maybe a week maybe 2 whichever works out better.

Jediagent also stated that all titles should be dropped as well. This a good idea again. When the forums come back on line everyone that is still around will make new accounts (except the Admins/mods). But no one has a title. The title should be earned. Yes I know I earned my current title. Since I started posting here in TT I have had alot of childish posting done. Remember this, I will not post crazily anymore. That's right I will stop. I will only post if I can help. If you don't believe me, delete my post count. I don't care about that anymore. I care about helping people.

The forums should also be re-organized. I find that alot of people really don't know EXACTLY where to post there question. The forums need to be organized better.

I think having the post count in the left bar should be done away with. Yep done away with. Instead there should be a medal system. I.E. A medal for posts with substance, amount of QUALITY posts, a medal for posting helpful replys etc. These medals should only be appointed by admins. If an Admin thinks that a certain person deserves one he/she can appoint one to the user. The medal would be displayed at the left, where the post count used to be. This would eliminate spamming, they wouldnt get a medal for amount of posts if the posts

I think there should also be less Admins, but more moderators. Moderators that are constantly here. I know that when Wiggo was gone Beefy was feeling the pressure to moderate the forums as well as handle other things.

In terms of the BG it should stay, people need a place to sit back relax and talk.

[Mr. C]

It's quite apparent.
The one recurring theme in each post within this thread is genuine care for the forum here.

Wiggo summed it up nicely when he talked about the "knee-jerk reaction". I think what is called for is some serious moderation not drastic action.

Folks come here for a lot of reasons, but it is an extremely small percentage 0.01% or less that come here for the wrong reason.
I reckon most here could name those few readily.

I would consider it sad indeed to think that we are so far off track that we can't steer back to the road. If we have to call a tow-truck it might be time for the scrap-yard:(

I can understand those old-timers that have a fondness for the good 'ol days. But TweakTown was never a static display and if it becomes one then it has outlived it's usefulness.

This forum is not broken. For the year+ that I have frequented this forum there was a status-quo that has not changed nor should it.

From time to time there will be unsavory characters that are drawn to the lights of town. When that happens you don't burn down the town, you address the issues with the rogues.

[Thoric]

thoric, the one problem with the question of "which cpu is best?" and one like that, is that people have different needs, budgets and ask at different times of the year, and as we all know, with computers, components constantly get superseeded.

true, but i think maybe we can isolate these kind of questions in a new forum...

i said early on in this thread that all these 'which cpu is best' kinda questions, should be moved to a forum...or they could be more suggested to post in the 'what can i buy' section instead of the other forums, where they ask the same thing.

i agree people have different needs, things go out of date etc, but at i think it could be controlled a bit better, leaving the other forums for help/comments/questions etc.

[Wiggo]

Mr. C[/size]]

Wiggo summed it up nicely when he talked about the "knee-jerk reaction". I think what is called for is some serious moderation not drastic action.

That is mine and most others most serious gripe atm and the one that has caused the biggest problem here.
There are mods listed here but I rarely see them and with the **** that's been goin' on in my life these past 18 months (and especially the last 2) I havn't had much time for the BG and spendin' a lot of time at hospitals and doctors is something that I don't relish.

Anyhow my youngest son has just now (well 1.5hrs ago when I started this reply) been run over and taken to hospital and I've sent Kay with him in case she takes a turn as well while I man the fort here with the other 3 kids. So just whatever you'se decide just make sure I know well before it happens.

Now I'm off to see how my son is.

[pga1234]

Ok deleted previous message.

Anyway, been talking to wiggo and here's an update:

"ok my son seems ok but they're waitin' on ct scans for internal injuries but they have givin' him some morphene and he is sleepin' comfortably atm"

[SileNceR]

That is mine and most others most serious gripe atm and the one that has caused the biggest problem here.
There are mods listed here but I rarely see them and with the **** that's been goin' on in my life these past 18 months (and especially the last 2) I havn't had much time...

The moderators listed and who are rarely seen are like myself, having been frustrated by the volume of, for the lack of better wording - crap - they have to search through to find a thread with substance, have up and left the forums for months at a time. This is true for myself, Kheldar (busy with other sites), GrimReaper, Osiris, sKuLLsHoT (most times) - these guys are all hardcore forum users who seemed to dissapear in dribs and drabs after the last server loss - beginning again seemed futile after 2 losses within a relatively short-lived period, and the spam continued at a colossal rate after the server was fixed - but the decent posts did not.

I agree with many points made regarding many of the issues around this, but I disagree with darth's point of people not being satisified - I was, and still would be, as would many others who are participating in this thread, if the forums outside of the beer-garden had been kept clean, unfortunately too many of the moderators packed up and left, causing the problem to only get worse.

The removal of the post counts for the BG threads has more than one advantage - while not only getting rid of users who feel that their post counts are their lives, post counts now show what a medal system would in many cases, how much a user contributes to technical minded conversation, helping out and asking questions, and seperates those who assist from those who spam.

An idea might be thus,

Beer garden post counts in some way accrue different "Count" than other posts, say an "Off Topic Post Count" counter, then a seperate "post count" or star system for the other forums, allowing users to see who actually helps (by their stars), and who in effect posts to post - 4000 O-T posts and no stars and 10 "posts" show a steady BG member, who in their own right can "compete" for O-T post count if they feel so inclined, and those who spam after warning in other forums have their count detracted by 50 posts per spam post in other forums -

a user such as darth with say 1200 posts, 50 O-T posts, and say a 7 star rating would indicate a dedicated helper and contributor in technical discussion...

of course this may not be possible due to technical issues with setting up seperate counts in the forum software, but the principle is there.


[edit] hope your son is ok wiggo, sounds like a bad run you're having there :(